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Thread: [Feedback] Building extremely kludgy

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    [...]
    About using keyboard to move blocks by steps on the grid - It sounds promising, but we would need to find a way how to integrate it into our current building mode.
    I hope is high on the priority list
    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    [...]
    We will add possiblity to use blocks directly from menu without using hotbar, you're right that hotbar is useless when you want to build just one instance of the block.
    I am not sure if switching to tool automatically after block skelet placing will be good, because sometime you want to put more blocks and finish them later at once, don't you? [...]
    Sometime when I build, I find uncomfortable that I have to swap away from hotbar some blocks. It feels that the hotbar is too small. I guess this addition to the game will help. I will keep on the hotbar the most often used items and I will occasionally be able to build special blocks when needed.
    You will not alter the existing behavior, you will just add to it, am I right?
    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    [...]
    Yes, we can make it configurable in options, but we want to keep number of options low, so we first try to find universal solution.
    Why do you want to keep the number of options low?
    Players are happier when they can configure their game experience.
    I know the excuse developers use is that adding options increases the testing effort, because the game has to be tested with all combinations, but the players do give feedback when something goes wrong.
    And is better to have the options and fix them gradually than not implementing them at all.

    I feel you do not want to make the players happy and you prefer to negotiate with them and change things only if they complain much enough.
    With this strategy, you will always be just slightly above the complain level and when sales start, the less tolerant players will punish you.

  2. #27
    Kickstarter Alpha Nomad
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    Initially the amount of options may be hidden. When I start a new game for the first time I usually check the options to see what there is to change; having 300 different settings would be overwhelming for someone who does not know the game.
    Some quick settings presets and an option for detailed settings would be cool, you already do that for the easy/medium/hard/custom world settings.
    100% linux gaming

  3. #28
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    With the current building system another problem is when the player wants to place alternatively two blocks: switching from one block to the other one, the position of the ghost block resets to default, making the rotating step mandatory each time.

  4. #29
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    Sometime it may be hard to find opposite rotation to turn block back to original rotation. This is why we rather reset rotation on block selection. Do you think it would be generally easier to build if each block will remember its last rotation? Or you want to remember / reuse the same rotation for all blocks?

  5. #30
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    The same key, pressed 2nd time should reset the position to the default one.
    However each block on the hotbar should remember it's own position.

    Example:
    Place "short inner wall" horizontally (hotbar slot 7)
    Place "conveyor 1x8" horizontally (hotbar slot 9)
    Press 7: "short inner wall" should be displayed horizontally as it was before
    Press 7: again to bring it back to default vertical position

    https://youtu.be/A4WbSMGw9oA

    Observe in this video also the cross-hair behavior (I moved it slowly, like a drunk man, to highlight the problem ):
    1st block snaps before the cross-hair reaches the surface.
    2nd block snaps correctly after the cross-hair passes the surface and comes back to the surface from the opposite direction.
    3rd block doesn't remember it's previous position
    The cross-hair is hard to be distinguished on some background surfaces.

    Pressing 2nd time to bring the block back to it's default position has the advantage that has low impact on existing habits the players may have and is required less frequently than using "x" twice and mouse wheel.
    Sometime I have to press "X" only once but I am impatient and I press it twice and then I have to cycle and rotate and I end up making far more actions than necessary.
    Last edited by Menzagitat; 12-02-2018 at 05:11 PM. Reason: highlighted "The cross-hair is hard to be distinguished on some background surfaces."

  6. #31
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    Example how difficult is to use the snapping in hover mode.
    The other modes seem to work harder than some months ago. Have I lost my agility?
    Also the wire-frame vibration... I see it 1st time.
    https://youtu.be/qb2xFfGbV40

  7. #32
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    That flicker like here https://youtu.be/qb2xFfGbV40?t=45 started not long ago, might be with the release of the new gizmo? I also think that it's much harder to snap blocks now. I usually have to walk or fly backwards like you do it until that thing finally snaps, before the change I could point at the edge of the previous block and it would align most of the times.
    100% linux gaming

  8. #33
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    Yes, the thing with the second keypress seems reasonable.

    Problem with cross-hair positioning is probably that you do not point with crosshair directly, but with ghost block at constant distance and only when ghost block is impossible to build, it tries raycasting. So in 1st case I think it snapped by ghost block, as it was far enough, and in second case it used crosshair, as ghost block was impossible to use because it was inside the existing block.
    I know, that this constant-distance thing is not ideal, I also prefer pointing just with crosshair, which we had long time ago. But crosshair is unable to point on many places and select which point on ghost block you want to use at crosshair position. So this is the best we have.

    We'll have a look at crosshair contrast, maybe we can add some outline or change its color on pale background.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    We'll have a look at crosshair contrast, maybe we can add some outline or change its color on pale background.
    Alternatively, since every person has different eyes and different screens they game with, perhaps an Option Menu configurable crosshair where you can setup how thick the lines are, how long the lines are (some may want longer ones in build mode, or just a simple dot), as well as its color?

    Given the complexities of the above, even if going back to the old school way of a simple image file (Quake 3 Arena was this way) and then we could mod in whichever style, color, thickness one we prefer.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Vrmithrax's Avatar
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    I find that one of the biggest issues I run into when building is that the blocks try to auto-rotate based on my view, which requires constantly rotating blocks as I shift positions around a structure or vehicle. For example, I might be creating a row of sloped blocks that should line up side by side, but as I place one and move to place the next one, if I happen to rotate my view just a bit too far, the block is suddenly 90 degrees off from how I want it placed. It can often add up to a lot of jockeying around with the character view perspective and/or extra unnecessary rotations.

    I tend to wish that the rotation would remain constant relative to the grid being built on, not relative to my current view direction.

  11. #36
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    Regarding the cross-hair, I would like to have two colors, maybe two concentric circles or a circle and a cross of different colors. And at least one would be visible.
    To be configurable would be of course the cherry on the cake

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrmithrax View Post
    I tend to wish that the rotation would remain constant relative to the grid being built on, not relative to my current view direction.
    We have it like this before, and problem was that you was looking on ghost block rotated somehow in the air and once you aim on a grid, it rotated differently. We should make some switch for it.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzagitat View Post
    With the current building system another problem is when the player wants to place alternatively two blocks: switching from one block to the other one, the position of the ghost block resets to default, making the rotating step mandatory each time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Menzagitat View Post
    The same key, pressed 2nd time should reset the position to the default one.
    However each block on the hotbar should remember it's own position.
    ...
    Pressing 2nd time to bring the block back to it's default position has the advantage that has low impact on existing habits the players may have
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    Yes, the thing with the second keypress seems reasonable. ...
    I just noticed people advise on Steam this solution to other games
    http://steamcommunity.com/app/363360...93255129567310

    ... to be honest I love a system, that is used in Planet Nomads better, where you have one button to change the axis of rotation and two buttons to rotate the block, with that you have to memorize only 3 buttons and what they do instead of 6 buttons.

    Regardless if additional axis of rotation is added or not, what I would like to see more to be implemented is that the game should remember the last rotation used for a block per block shape so that I don't have to re-rotate the block after switching to another block or block group back and forth. That would come in handy with all those weird shaped slopes when building intricate non boxy builds.
    Last edited by Menzagitat; 12-03-2018 at 09:12 PM.

  14. #39
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    I tested a bit more. The flicker is fixed.
    The snapping is still improvable.
    https://youtu.be/TD0idCbsWgI

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrmithrax View Post
    ... I tend to wish that the rotation would remain constant relative to the grid being built on, not relative to my current view direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    We have it like this before, and problem was that you was looking on ghost block rotated somehow in the air and once you aim on a grid, it rotated differently. We should make some switch for it.
    A switch would indeed be useful to toggle between
    • snap to surface pointed by the cross-hair (should allow building on surfaces further away)
    • let the wire-frame find objects around it
    • both methods (what we have now)


    - - - Updated - - -


    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    About using keyboard to move blocks by steps on the grid - It sounds promising, but we would need to find a way how to integrate it into our current building mode.
    This thread has many valuable info
    Last edited by Menzagitat; 18-03-2018 at 03:36 PM.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    Yes, the thing with the second keypress seems reasonable. ...
    Thanks for implementing this feature!

    But it works as long as the wire-frame is visible. Once I press the holster key (in my case RMB) the wireframe is removed and if I want to build once more the same block, it is again in the initial position.
    Last edited by Menzagitat; 28-03-2018 at 07:32 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzagitat View Post
    T if I want to build once more the same block, it is again in the initial position.
    Noted. We will improve that

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    [...]
    About using keyboard to move blocks by steps on the grid - It sounds promising, but we would need to find a way how to integrate it into our current building mode.
    That solution may help this guy here too:
    http://steamcommunity.com/app/504050...9163398647239/

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    Noted. We will improve that
    This is fixed well now! Thanks!

  19. #44
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    But let's go back to healthy criticism, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    Hi guys,
    [...]
    Placing blocks in 3D environment only by 2D mouselook is bigger problem than we thought, so we're still trying to tune variables, like default and maximum building distance to fit best our feel. It's still far from perfect and we are open to suggestions that could make building easier while not limiting possibilities or adding complexity. But we cannot see what is real issues of real players, so probably the best way to describe what botters you, is to send us a video showing where do you feel building is cumbersome.
    Here is a video from a youtuber. It feels good to see a patient one
    He tried 4 minutes before he realized he will get nowhere with it. Then he found a solution and he ended saying he had a lot of fun with the blocks And showed the problem once more and the solution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGqMEulpsII&t=1079
    Last edited by Menzagitat; 15-04-2018 at 12:01 PM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    ...
    We'll have a look at cross-hair contrast, maybe we can add some outline or change its color on pale background.
    I was testing the recent change with the delayed destruction and I noticed that beside the cross-hair, also the progress circle is shown with a light blue color which is hard to see.

    crosshair_.png

    Two colors could be used maybe, a dark one and a light one, and then the cross-hair and the progress circle will be visible on all backgrounds.
    A configuration option would also be nice for those who want to choose the colors or shape of the cross-hair.

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