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Thread: Snap-to needs more snap

  1. #1
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    Snap-to needs more snap

    I am giving you feedback on first impressions playing survival first play through after being away for a while.

    Snap-to seems a bit more usable than I remember it but its still not working satisfactorily.

    Here for example I have the cursor centered on the face of the block immediately below the door and the steps wont place there.

    On the other side of the building the ground is lower and the steps will place OK because more of the lower tile is exposed.

    From my point of view it doesnt matter where the ground is, I expect a buildable item to snap-to the face I can see and access.
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    Last edited by boolybooly; 14-07-2018 at 09:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    Based on that image, it looks like around 1/2 or more of the steps object is intersecting the gound (possible the pivot point, difficult to tell). In my experience, if the pivot point (or a certain percentage, I'm not entirely sure how the devs have worked it out) of a placeable object intersects with the ground, it won't place, and tbh, neither should it imo.

    TheMightySpud

  3. #3
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    TBH I dont think that is the real situation.

    Since kickstarter snap-to has been a problem and while it is improving getting it right is a WIP.

    Part of the issue seems to be that the snap-to is working off the ghost block placement and trying to link juxtaposed faces, when it might do better to use Empyrion's method of analysing which face the cursor is overlaying and then snapping the face of the ghost block to that. The problem above is the cursor cannot go low enough on the block to bring the face of the steps close enough to the floor block face to snap-to. Any lower and the cursor hits the dirt and wont align to the floor block. You can easily make it align by digging the floor down a bit by the block but you shouldnt have to and its a bit unsightly if you consider aesthetics important, which this game obviously does.

    You can use a ramp in the same spot because the ramp model is flatter so the face of the ramp is aligned to the cursor and snaps-to, whereas the face of the steps (which are much steeper) is significantly above the cursor compared to the ramp. So you have to drop the cursor that much lower to get the steps to align.

    The alternative is to increase snap-to range for the stairs, in particular above and below respectively the foot and the head of the stairs.

  4. #4
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    Use a ramp on a spot where the ground is higher, I garantee you'll get the same behaviour (as I have done whilst building my new base. The snapping behaviour that you're looking for on that particular build wouldn't work anyway, because the 'top' of the stairs (railings etc) would intersect with the part of the reinforced wall that extends beyond the bounds of the Foundation block. :-/

  5. #5
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    When beta/alpha testing to help professional developers its helpful be concise and accurate and double check what you report. I try to keep to that standard and not waste devs time with innaccurate information.

    So for that reason I must state I am afraid you are wrong on both counts TheMightySpud. The ramp built where the stairs won't and the stairs will build beneath a door in that location where the soil is a tiny bit lower.

    Here are two screenshots, the first shows a ramp built in exactly the same location the stairs would not build, (same map, same location), the second shows the other side of the same small building where stairs placed beneath a door alongside reinforced wall in a location you say it will not place, because the soil is a little lower. FYI
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    Last edited by boolybooly; 14-07-2018 at 06:19 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinsustek View Post
    ...It's not very convenient and I hate it too, but at least it is possible to build a block anyhow you want to. And this is the basic property we want the building system to have.

    I can promise that once we'll found a convenient way how to have non-fixed building distance and still have full creative freedom, it will be the on the top of the list of things to implement.
    ...
    See see timestamp 18:00 (I like how patient he is and never tells anything bad)
    https://youtu.be/bGqMEulpsII?t=1080


    I feel that the game needs now to improve the gameplay (the survival part) but we should not forget about the snapping.

    @Craneballs
    Also when the blueprints are added to the game, I really hope to be able to weld those blueprints to existing structures.
    I know it is a lot of work, but why make something which is not good enough and then let people to keep asking later for better solutions?
    Yes, you will say it is too much work and you do not want to change a running system, being afraid to break it.

    Doing as little as possible (just to be able to mark a task as "done" in your task list) is a bad practice.

  7. #7
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    The reason I am giving feedback is that Craneballs were asking for tutorial feedback in a recent newsletter, what they do with it is their choice.

    I am giving it with constructive intent as a Kickstarter backer and long time beta tester and player with some programming experience long ago. I also have plenty of experience with the games they are competing against in the marketplace. Though its not really a competition of elimination so much as achieving a certain level of positive reviews on Steam but the impressions people get can often be by comparison with other games they are playing.

    Any game which gets mixed on Steam I usually skip over because its usually for good reason, so its important to do better than that. Currently PN is mixed 69%, pretty close to positive territory but not quite there yet. Needs to keep going and it could break through. A fair few of the negative reviews are comparing PN to Subnautica and it has to be said that while PN is just as beautiful to look at, the gameplay experience is smoother in SN than PN because movement is in simulated water so terrain collisions are fewer and less awkward and if you do make contact with a surface in SN you dont grind to a halt like in PN. You dont notice it but physics is quite limited in SN and more of a strong point for PN. Also you can do a lot more with a lot fewer resources in SN because the buildings are prefabs, I really think that is most of the difference. I dont really engage with the premise of SN story tbh but the world and the building are very pleasing.

    That is the context in which I made previous suggestions about improving avatar movement in PN and also why I am talking about inventory management in another thread to help with the quantities you need to build in survival and I also feel snap-to needs to be a bit more usable, its almost there. The improvements I am talking about might help create a better play experience and afterglow in people's minds and so get positive reviews as well as making the gameplay better, more fluid and less hassled. The two objectives are one, improve the gameplay get positive reviews = same thing.

    The other thing (speaking as a zoologist here) is a subconscious level identification with the avatar which players experience sometimes without even knowing it. So if you go third person in PN the avatar, not to put too fine a point on it, minces their way across the terrain, its a very weak stride and the avatar is genderless. Its not a grrr-tiger-heman and its not a mmm-curvey-sexylady. There is even a concave section where the gonads ought to be which looks like a complete evasion of gender which does not satisfy aesthetically.

    On one level its very scifi escapist to go neutral androgynous but it does not engage people when it looks so weak. At the very least the stride needs to be more positive and athletic and movement needs to be able to flow round obstacles, especially all the buildings and machines. Avatar movement speed should probably be upgradable with exosuit tech. Currently if you hit a face at more than 45° you stop dead and it looks a bit pathetic to watch the avatar trying to ineffectually mince their way around a wall, IMHO that needs to be more like anything less than 70° and you move sideways along the obstacle and slip past it.

    Also IMHO they really need to think about gender specific avatars, though SNs avatar was a likeable quirky haired teenager, not a brute by any means but athletic looking nonetheless which PNs avatar is not. I guess that is not welcome news but its the subjective / artistic / commercial truth and I feel that if Craneballs address it they will do better which I why I bother to say anything about it. But its their call, just my 2c.
    Last edited by boolybooly; 15-07-2018 at 01:21 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by boolybooly View Post
    ... a subconscious level identification with the avatar...
    I wonder how we managed to play with Lara Croft

    Your post above contains some very interesting ideas. Very well written.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menzagitat View Post
    I wonder how we managed to play with Lara Croft

    Your post above contains some very interesting ideas. Very well written.
    Thankyou, very kind of you to say so. I get bored

    wrt your question though, that is a tricky issue, its a fair point the identification with an avatar is not all about identification with self image, it can be empathy with an image of another.

    IMHO perception of others is a subtle business but we can safely say it has to be predicated on projection of self in some way because all we know about others comes from reflections on what we observe about them, within ourselves.

    In the particular case of perceiving an individual to be of an attractive gender, the projection is of desire rather than identification with self. The object in the minds eye is seen as not self, because the motivation is to move towards the object of desire, so it is perceived with the spatial awareness needed for navigation, maybe even attributed with a theory of mind, both of which make it seem not to be self ! Even so the perceptions which created desire and the impulses and curiosity created by desire are still a projection of self, since desire arises from self if one stops to think about it long enough !

    Nature red in tooth and claw does not tend to give creatures much time to think, optimally just enough and no more.

    Isn't it fair to say though, this is not always straight forwards, considering the strange short circuits which sometimes appear to happen for some people in relation to digital media and internet? The phenomenon of Waifus for one example, males obsessed with images of females, animé, porn and Katy Perry.

    From a zoological perspective its not that surprising since all social animals have the cognitive capability to recognise the same species hence they gravitate together to form herds and shoals and flocks, troops and tribes for their "safety" which then leads to competition for resources as they all need the same things to live. Much study has gone into the way shapes, colours, sounds and smells of animals act as "releasers" of behaviour when perceived by another animal. Most social animals have the ability to recognise genders within their own species by such means, (which in the case of humans includes the body shapes we associate with avatar genders) and a sufficient majority end up doing what is necessary to create the next generation as a result, its a complex mechanism but it seems to work well enough in nature. On the internet it is kind of inappropriate but still operates as a kind of pathology.

    Philosophically the point is relating to an avatar has to be based on a cognitive process, which even in digital media detects the gender of other individuals by shape and then attributes a motivation, either desire or competitiveness from among the behavioural instincts of the perceiver.

    Commercially the point is gender recognition is highly motivating one way or another, either stimulating competitive instincts or heaven help us all subliminal desire and tender concern for the object of ones desire which I think probably explains the Tomb Raider phenomenon, among other things.

    Last edited by boolybooly; 16-07-2018 at 06:02 PM.

  10. #10
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    Once I suggested an improvement for minecraft, to make those villagers also with gender. Oh what a backlash I got!
    I guess many minecrafters "gravitate" toward those... big nosed... handles... helpless and gender-less villagers

    Now that you approached this phenomenon philosophically too, I am curious what your answer would be to my post here:
    https://forum.planet-nomads.com/thre...-survival-game

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