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Thread: [LOW PRIORITY] Parallel hinges cannot be placed once the first hinge has been unlocked

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    [LOW PRIORITY] Parallel hinges cannot be placed once the first hinge has been unlocked

    Game Version: 0.9.0.4
    OS: Fedora 28 x86_64
    Simple Description: Parallel hinges cannot be placed once the first hinge has been unlocked
    Detailed Description: Once a hinge connecting two platforms has been unlocked it is impossible to place further hinges in the bend even though the model implies that it wouldn't collide with the other platform.
    Reproducibility: Every time
    How to Reproduce: Build a platform suspended above the ground. Place a hinge on the platform's edge, then build another platform on the other side. Unlock the first hinge. Attempt to build additional hinges in between the platforms.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Vrmithrax's Avatar
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    This is due to a snap limitation in the game engine. Even if you built the second hinge before unlocking the first one, the second hinge is only connected on one end, not both. It cannot snap to 2 separate existing sub-grids. The first one worked because you placed the hinge, then essentially created the secondary grid when you built on the open end of the hinge.

    Hopefully that capability will be coming at some point in the near future. It's been a common thorn in the sides of builders, and affects more than just moving parts. Build a long extended line of conveyors with some machine or storage at the end of the line, then remove and replace 1 of the conveyor components in the line to see the same issue - when you removed that piece, you created 2 separate grids, and the replaced conveyor part will only snap to 1 end or the other (even though it looks like it made both connections), so the items on each end of the line can no longer "see" each other in the network.

    Edit - It's a related side effect of the other item you reported regarding hinges, which I just noticed. The game engine is very finicky about placement and having the proper clearances for a block to exist in the location you want to build it. In the case of trying to drop another hinge in parallel to the first one, it's got the clearance on the mounting side, but since the other end is not going to snap to the other grid floating on the first hinge, it can't give permission to allow the block to be built there. It's expecting an open block area to be available at the end of the new hinge, where it will establish a new grid. Hope that makes sense.
    Last edited by Vrmithrax; 03-07-2018 at 07:36 PM. Reason: For clarity (hopefully)

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    The thing is that it could just be a matter of checking for existing parallel hinges and connected platform, and then having the new hinge "pre-bent" so that both sides can connect.

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    Senior Member Vrmithrax's Avatar
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    Yes, that would work, but only if they can ever get the ability to connect a single part to 2 grids. That's the limiting factor at the moment, you can only attach any part to a single grid at a time. There's a lot of fundamental game engine dynamics that have to change first.

    Even a "weld" function would work out in most cases. Place the hinge on one side, unlock rotation, start the weld function, click on the open connection face on the hinge, click the face you want to attach it to, and have the game engine snap those together to join with both grids.

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    why not make the hinge block expandable, make droping a hinge require 2 blocks a start and end block. once both are placed the engine would count it as all 1 object that varies in length depending on how it was placed. the engine would just drop duplicate single square images to fill in the hinge area to look proper. I would assume this would fix the physics oddities as it would have a larger surface area to spread out the different calculations. it would still not allow for 2 sets of hinges on a single object but should help with alot of the oddities due to physics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrmithrax View Post
    Yes, that would work, but only if they can ever get the ability to connect a single part to 2 grids. That's the limiting factor at the moment, you can only attach any part to a single grid at a time. There's a lot of fundamental game engine dynamics that have to change first.

    Even a "weld" function would work out in most cases. Place the hinge on one side, unlock rotation, start the weld function, click on the open connection face on the hinge, click the face you want to attach it to, and have the game engine snap those together to join with both grids.
    This is one of those things I just have a hard time wrapping around my head...

    XXX
    XXX This ia a Grid
    XXX

    XXX
    XXX This is a separate grid.
    XXX

    XXX
    XXX
    XXX
    X This is also a grid, if built at one time.
    XXX
    XXX
    XXX

    XXX
    XXX
    XXX
    Y But this is two grids because Y is magical because it bends, twists, or was placed after all the X's.
    XXX
    XXX
    XXX

    Or am I missing something?

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    @Indigo:

    That's about right. My bug report concerns creating additional bending Ys in the gap to connect the two grids after the grids have bent.

    I mean, I understand that putting blocks in the middle of the grids won't weld them together regardless, but visually it looks like you should be able to place another hinge there.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Vrmithrax's Avatar
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    Basically, any grid of blocks that has some kind of movement capabilities independent from (or relative to) another set of blocks must be a separate grid, because Unity physics and movement calculations for the one grid may not apply to the other, and vice versa. It's enough of a mess when you have 1 grid that is connected to another grid with something like a hinge, but it becomes a hot mess when you try to connect another hinge into that mix between 2 now dynamically independent grids. I'm sure someone clever could work out allowing for truly parallel hinges to be bound to both grids in the Unity engine, but it would be some fun coding alchemy. Makes my brain hurt, so it won't be me

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    Member BCP_Labs_YT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrmithrax View Post
    Basically, any grid of blocks that has some kind of movement capabilities independent from (or relative to) another set of blocks must be a separate grid, because Unity physics and movement calculations for the one grid may not apply to the other, and vice versa. It's enough of a mess when you have 1 grid that is connected to another grid with something like a hinge, but it becomes a hot mess when you try to connect another hinge into that mix between 2 now dynamically independent grids. I'm sure someone clever could work out allowing for truly parallel hinges to be bound to both grids in the Unity engine, but it would be some fun coding alchemy. Makes my brain hurt, so it won't be me
    then add a few rotating plates and a suspension or 2 and you have a satellite LOL

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    While adding hinges after the first one has a grid on its both ends may be rather challenging, what about making it possible to attach uncompleted hinges together and have them automatically fuse into a wider hinge?

    But of course it could be that Unity handles the grid connections as singular points instead of x*y areas, so only one block in a grid may actually be connected to the wider hinge and that would render the idea practically useless as the grids could still twist in unintended directions and by not knowing or forgetting which block in the row is maintaining the connection to the wide hinge we would far too often end up accidentally removing it.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Vrmithrax's Avatar
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    I'm really hoping we someday get a "welding" capability with the multi-tool or a separate tool. Something you can hit a joint between 2 adjacent blocks with, and it will snap them together and create a standard relation (merge grids if they are stationary blocks, or make the block a bridge between the 2 connected grids in the case of something like a hinge).

    For reference, Space Engineers had this same issue early on, with a plethora of sub grids that all operated independently. They introduced a merge block to provide a way to "weld" grids together. The physics was wonky as hell for a while after that, particularly with rotors and pistons, but eventually they got the moving parts to cooperate and assimilate into the appropriate grids well. A basic welding function that accomplishes the same thing would be great for PN.

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    I have experienced this with rotators while trying to find a way to build something amusing. While I can attach the first one just fine the second attaches either to the rotating block or to the outside block but not both. Splitting the object being rotated... well I thought to build it as two interlocked objects. It works sort of, for a time, until one or the other pops out and fouls the whole thing.

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    The factor is that it might just be a matter of checking for existing parallel hinges and connected platform, so having the new hinge in order that each side will connect. this is often because of a snap limitation within the game engine. albeit you designed the second hinge before unlocking the primary one, the second hinge is merely connected on one finish, not both. It cannot snap to two separate existing sub-grids. the primary one worked as a result of you placed the hinge, then primarily created the secondary grid once you designed on the open finish of the hinge.
    George Young

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    Perhaps the solution lies with a different sort of block - a “Multi-hinge” or “Mulit-rotator” block that simply has the appearance of one or more hinges/rotators X number of blocks apart, but is, in reality, just one block.

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    Member BCP_Labs_YT's Avatar
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    this is where my stasis jack could be really useful. being able to build something in a physics free "stasis" where blocks are not affected by gravity allowing the code to properly snap blocks. be it a piano type hinge or the square linkages i try to make. even though the active blocks can be locked they still have some give and wiggle room. maybe its something they can implement with the blueprinting feature

  16. #16
    Senior Member Vrmithrax's Avatar
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    I wonder if they could borrow an idea from Space Engineers, and make that work... Getting rotors to work in SE took some doing, and at one point someone got the brilliant idea to allow separation of the rotor body and the rotor head. Made certain assembly situations much easier to accomplish doing that.

    So, what if we had an option for placing a full hinge like we do now, or having a 2 part set of hinge blocks? You place one part or "base" where you want, then select the other part to place. At that point, the game engine could utilize a little special code as you are placing the 2nd part, so when you select the location you want to snap down the rest of the hinge, it does a quick check to see if a compatible hinge part exists there as well. If so, and if the rotation orientation matches between the part already in place, and the part you are adding, it would "go green" to indicate placement is OK, and combine the hinge parts together. A 2 part hinge like this would always be built defaulting as "unlocked" for simplification (it would help the engine match any angle that might already exist between the 2 grids you are referencing).

    This same mechanic could also provide an interesting way to "weld" grids together for some functions, particularly if you can disconnect and reconnect the hinge parts again later - a vehicle trailer hitch type of connection comes to mind, which already has a bunch of other alternative suggestions in place. Making me ponder all of the interesting ways something like this could be used. I imagine that, in the hands of a proper PN wizard like BCP, the possibilities could be endless!

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    Thanks a lot for this solution but i tried and still facing same issue.
    George Young

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