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Thread: Progression

  1. #1
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Azirahael's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Progression

    So, having played loads of that Other Game™, i have some recommendations.

    Don't make gear unlocks based on XP.
    it makes no sense that 'now you are level 5, you can unlock assault rifles' or whatever.

    Suggestions:
    1: Your character knows there's better stuff. Have them spend food, water and some resources (and a day or so) researching it.
    Play a quick cut scene, and unlock the gizmo being researched.

    2: Have higher tier items manufactured in higher tier fabricators. Thus the progression is 'how fast can you collect resources to build the manufacturing plant?'
    This has the advantage that you can 'gate' specific tiers of stuff, by needing hard to find resources, which prompts the player to go to new and dangerous places to get them.

    3: Your computer has all this info in it, but was damaged in the crash. it takes time to salvage the damaged info. build a base and set it running. adventure while you're waiting.

    More ideas, as i think of them

  2. #2
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad
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    Interesting, but don't you think in the end all the gathering will get boring.... or even annoying? It also depends on how much you already need to gather for your own survival. It may just be that all this gathering will become tedious in the end, have to do it for survival and progressing.

  3. #3
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Azirahael's Avatar
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    Yes, all the gathering will get boring.

    But we'll be doing it anyway.

    If we're collecting plants/animals for food, and mining metals for building, it's just another thing to spend those gathered things on.
    And i imagine, later there will be some automation to take some of the tedium out of it.

    Anything that makes sense, rather than 'Bing! you are now 9th level! You now magically know how to craft assult rifles!'

    I'm more a fan of 'I know assault rifles exist, and iv'e used them. now i need to figure out how to build one.'

    Or 'I have the plans in my emergency bank for assault rifles. but i need better alloys than i've been using to build my base. Gonna need cobalt to help in the refining process/Gonna need to build a better quality refinery.'

  4. #4
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azirahael View Post
    If we're collecting plants/animals for food, and mining metals for building, it's just another thing to spend those gathered things on.
    Well that's the whole point, I don't want just another thing to spent my time gathering on. Food and materials is plenty for me.

    Or 'I have the plans in my emergency bank for assault rifles. but i need better alloys than i've been using to build my base. Gonna need cobalt to help in the refining process/Gonna need to build a better quality refinery.'
    Sure, that I can see totally work, needing more rare elements to improve something or make something special.

  5. #5
    Preorder Collector Nomad GrimmLiberty7's Avatar
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    I like the "your data computer was damaged" idea... having to repair it and try to recover information is a logical "gate" to more information that plays well to me.
    -Grimm Liberty

  6. #6
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    You should check out the solus project - it's a survival exploration game, where they don't use xp, but gradually introduce things in newer areas that weren't in early areas.

    One of the things is being able to gather moss-like materials, then wrapping it around a metal bar, adding oil, then lighting the oil with the engine of the broken ship. Things like this make me want to play the game more, because I am discovering myself on how to survive in the harsh environment. Like taking shelter from electrical storms, where tornadoes are arriving. SO I take shelter in a cave to protect myself, with a fire to keep myself warm as the temp drops.

    I'm not a fan of Xp driven progression in a survival/exploration game, as it becomes an incredible grind, and absolutely kills that solitary feeling in a game such as this, dropping immersion.

  7. #7
    Preorder Collector Nomad MoonEater's Avatar
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    Well first of all, im not convinced exactly for unlockable tech tree progression.
    First of all, unlocking methods

    ad 1 Yes char have to know there are better stuff, but in high end sf researching? Im not exactly convinced, how on earth would he do that, i mean could You guys with no internets research how to lets say build a car or plane or cellphone? And the tech goes way higher for the character. And how exactly spending food and water would help.

    ad 2 yes i like this one, in my opinion char should be able to aces all of technology, just not be able to makie it yet cause of resources or tools needed do craft or gather like first you build a tool, then machine, than it builds smaller machine till were talking nanobots

    ad 3 this also is a good idea but only for start, to get some little more advanced things, like car or something, you have to repair computer, or better build another one and start data recovery from damaged life pod hard drive... and data recovery could take time, but who likes to wait

  8. #8
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Azirahael's Avatar
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    Yeah. I figure a mix of 2 and 3 makes most sense.

  9. #9
    Preorder Collector Nomad MoonEater's Avatar
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    Yeah like at start you have basics for survival, then you get data from onboard computer you got some more advanced tools to ensure survival and contacting help, but more advanced tech like capital ships shouldn't really be in life pod databank in my opinion

  10. #10
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Azirahael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonEater View Post
    Yeah like at start you have basics for survival, then you get data from onboard computer you got some more advanced tools to ensure survival and contacting help, but more advanced tech like capital ships shouldn't really be in life pod databank in my opinion
    How about this:

    Your character knows a capital ship crashed at some point.
    Ships often have to manufacture their own parts, so they will have construction info in the computers.

    So you build a scanning installation to find the thing, then go on a big overland trek to find it.
    Then a crawl through the wreck fighting guard robots and whatever nasty creatures have taken up residence, until you find the computer.
    Download the data, unlocking the basic space stuff.

    Now you build the machines to make the fancy parts.
    And gather the resources to build with.

    That sounds like it would keep you busy for a while

  11. #11
    Preorder Collector Nomad MoonEater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azirahael View Post
    How about this:

    Your character knows a capital ship crashed at some point.
    Ships often have to manufacture their own parts, so they will have construction info in the computers.

    So you build a scanning installation to find the thing, then go on a big overland trek to find it.
    Then a crawl through the wreck fighting guard robots and whatever nasty creatures have taken up residence, until you find the computer.
    Download the data, unlocking the basic space stuff.

    Now you build the machines to make the fancy parts.
    And gather the resources to build with.

    That sounds like it would keep you busy for a while
    Sounds amazing, this covers one of mine ideas I had in work, that maybe, maybe you have some since computer that can reverse engineer tech if you scan enough of it. Like you find crashed pod or ship, scan some of engine, but some parts were to destroyed to retrieve so you have to look for other ships, or wait long time or scan similar tech to aid your computer in work - you know scanning similar should help figuring out this one. I can buy this kind of research, reverse engineering and scanning, real research... Sounds silly in here
    But your idea is grate man

  12. #12
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Azirahael's Avatar
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    Subnautica has a good progression.
    If you like PN, you'll probably like it.
    Also early access.
    Sci-fi survival on an alien world... underwater!

    Anyway: crashed ship, a big one.
    You're the lone survivor.

    The parts you need: small sub, large sub, exo-suit, base buildings etc, are scattered around as wreckage.
    You scan them with a handheld scanner.
    When you've scanned all the bits, the computer builds a blueprint, and you 'unlock' it.
    So progression is 'as fast as you can find and scan all the parts.'
    Also gives you a good reason to explore



    none of this 'you're level 5! You now can build wheels! Somehow!'

  13. #13
    Preorder Collector Nomad MoonEater's Avatar
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    I know, have this game, the thing is its not exactly random with parts spawn. So once you know what's where game becomes almost too easy.
    OK I did a bad bad thing and looked up some of items location on Internets, but once I got technology, building let's say cyclops sub was really easy, just a little materials and were done (that can be also my munchkin hoarder gamer side talking in here to, not sure)

  14. #14
    Kickstarter Wreck Nomad Wishblend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azirahael View Post
    Subnautica has a good progression.
    If you like PN, you'll probably like it.
    Also early access.
    Sci-fi survival on an alien world... underwater!

    Anyway: crashed ship, a big one.
    You're the lone survivor.

    The parts you need: small sub, large sub, exo-suit, base buildings etc, are scattered around as wreckage.
    You scan them with a handheld scanner.
    When you've scanned all the bits, the computer builds a blueprint, and you 'unlock' it.
    So progression is 'as fast as you can find and scan all the parts.'
    Also gives you a good reason to explore



    none of this 'you're level 5! You now can build wheels! Somehow!'
    I do like this idea.
    Always looking for hidden locations and ways to build

    See my builds https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Zv_ap4HysL3HIl

  15. #15
    Super Moderator Wazbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azirahael View Post
    Subnautica has a good progression.
    If you like PN, you'll probably like it.
    Also early access.
    Sci-fi survival on an alien world... underwater!

    Anyway: crashed ship, a big one.
    You're the lone survivor.

    The parts you need: small sub, large sub, exo-suit, base buildings etc, are scattered around as wreckage.
    You scan them with a handheld scanner.
    When you've scanned all the bits, the computer builds a blueprint, and you 'unlock' it.
    So progression is 'as fast as you can find and scan all the parts.'
    Also gives you a good reason to explore



    none of this 'you're level 5! You now can build wheels! Somehow!'
    The problem with this is is in subnautica you unlock entire vehicles, however in PN you will be able to build anything with blocks, maybe even things that you shouldn't be able to at that time(Wheels out of blocks, Space elevators towers, etc...).

    Me personally, I think every kind of basic block should be buildable in the early game, allowing for you to build any kind of contraption easily. But maybe via a method like the one above you could unlock better versions of the previous blocks. Stronger wheels, improved generators, etc...

  16. #16
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    Ok so I have a couple of things to address about this.

    1. First off, I think that most of us are in agreement that the whole "I'm X level and can now make a better whatever is the worst progression idea" and that we need something instead of that because its just a immersion killer.

    2. Secondly, I don't know about all of you but if i want to get better gear, weapons and tech by exploring a world and scanning things I'll go play Subnautica not a space game. Scanning makes sense in Subnautica because its an underwater game and there is all kinds of underwater scanning equipment. Where it doesn't fit is in a space sim.

    Ok, So now on to my idea. Seems how everyone is so set on having a drone bot in this game for mining, repairing and what not(Which btw I don't agree with. Nothing kills a game faster than people getting stuff with little to no effort put in.*Brakes screeching. Derailed,my bad). Why couldn't there be a spacey like drone or bot(Whatever you wanna call it) that when you crash from the wreck you would get a emergency message from the pod or smallship that deploys protocol(whatever) and tells you to repair the aid drone/bot to bring your systems online. You then would know from the information that you need to acquire AI chip and X amount of resources to repair it. You would assentially be running around blind without a hud until you have done so. Once you have repaired the drone/bot it brings itself online scans you and reboots your suit systems online and will feed you data from itself to you. For instance, if you are running low on food, it will give you a 20% warning. If you acquire a welder, It would say something like " Arc welder acquired." You could then go look at your Arc welder information and notice it can be upgraded when you click to find out how to upgrade it the drone/bot will say "Access Denied". You can then click on the drone/bot and see under Access codes it was denied because the bot requires an upgrade chip. Then you click on the info for it and it tells you how to make it. As you upgrade the bot it acquires or unlocks the files needed to learn higher tech. As you want to continue to upgrade the bot it gets harder to do like requiring a programmer for the chips.

    Let me know what you guys think.Maybe its not a good idea. Just trying to think of something new no one else has done.

  17. #17
    Preorder Collector Nomad MoonEater's Avatar
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    Ok fun idea, but I don't get the you don't have access craft this to get one, there are security measures.
    But what if this drone would not be completely functional, what if he would say that if you want to have access to more restricted data you should go to nearest corporate requisition officer and gives you some directions to crashed ship at some distance away. Being not exactly functional he would see the ship bacon and think there is everything all right, you could salvage or decrypt computer on ship and add yourself some permission

  18. #18
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Azirahael's Avatar
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    Unlocking individual blocks, could be as simple as breaking one down.

    so, unlocking most basic blocks would be a very basic mission of 'Find tools. Use them to break down the escape pod for materials.'

    Ditto with wheels and stuff. As soon as you break down a wheel or whatever. from a wreck, you can build more. Once you have the materials.

    That's a fourth way to do it.

  19. #19
    Kickstarter Wreck Nomad Wishblend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azirahael View Post
    Unlocking individual blocks, could be as simple as breaking one down.

    so, unlocking most basic blocks would be a very basic mission of 'Find tools. Use them to break down the escape pod for materials.'

    Ditto with wheels and stuff. As soon as you break down a wheel or whatever. from a wreck, you can build more. Once you have the materials.

    That's a fourth way to do it.
    Reverse engineering.
    Always looking for hidden locations and ways to build

    See my builds https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Zv_ap4HysL3HIl

  20. #20
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Grit_Breather's Avatar
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    I'll try and tackle this from a different direction. If any of you have played RPGs, this may seem familiar.

    So yeah, "You are now level 5 and have gained wheels" is bad, very bad. I propose that each character (this needs to be designed for multiplayer support from the core) be given various skills and proficiencies. These would determine the how efficient that character can be at interacting with the environment in different tasks.
    For example, I would have a low level in my building skill so when I build blocks, they would require more materials/components and it would also take me longer to do. Over time, I could bolster my building skill and improve my efficiency at building.
    The same could work for combat, driving, jetpack usage, mining, gathering, lumberjacking, etc.

    There would also not be a hard limit to achieve and these skills would never stop improving. In order to avoid "god character" situations, progression would not be linear but would rather be on a diminishing curve. Every progression I make will have less of an effect than my last one.
    I purposely don't want to call these "levels" but let's take that terminology as an example for a moment. When I advance from level 1 to 2 I would gain 2% efficiency but advancing from 21 to 22 would give me much less, maybe 0.1% efficiency gain. This way I could keep progressing forever and I would gain from this progression (especially for large builds, for example) but I would still not create that much of a gap from a starting player as to not be able to exist in the same world.

    How does this help us?
    Blocks and maybe even grid types would interact differently with various types of skills. They could even make a task so tedious that I would avoid it entirely until my efficiency is high enough. This way, we can guide starting players away from advanced blocks without actually blocking access to them. It's the way real life works and I think it would be good in PN too.

  21. #21
    Kickstarter Wreck Nomad Wishblend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grit_Breather View Post
    I'll try and tackle this from a different direction. If any of you have played RPGs, this may seem familiar.

    So yeah, "You are now level 5 and have gained wheels" is bad, very bad. I propose that each character (this needs to be designed for multiplayer support from the core) be given various skills and proficiencies. These would determine the how efficient that character can be at interacting with the environment in different tasks.
    For example, I would have a low level in my building skill so when I build blocks, they would require more materials/components and it would also take me longer to do. Over time, I could bolster my building skill and improve my efficiency at building.
    The same could work for combat, driving, jetpack usage, mining, gathering, lumberjacking, etc.

    There would also not be a hard limit to achieve and these skills would never stop improving. In order to avoid "god character" situations, progression would not be linear but would rather be on a diminishing curve. Every progression I make will have less of an effect than my last one.
    I purposely don't want to call these "levels" but let's take that terminology as an example for a moment. When I advance from level 1 to 2 I would gain 2% efficiency but advancing from 21 to 22 would give me much less, maybe 0.1% efficiency gain. This way I could keep progressing forever and I would gain from this progression (especially for large builds, for example) but I would still not create that much of a gap from a starting player as to not be able to exist in the same world.

    How does this help us?
    Blocks and maybe even grid types would interact differently with various types of skills. They could even make a task so tedious that I would avoid it entirely until my efficiency is high enough. This way, we can guide starting players away from advanced blocks without actually blocking access to them. It's the way real life works and I think it would be good in PN too.
    This sounds like character skill layout, where you can either select some skills at the start that make it easier for somethings and not others like harvesting to gather food ect or construction for building ect.

    But maybe you would find a datapad or old paper book with the skill as you explore that when read will give you a boost in that skill.
    Always looking for hidden locations and ways to build

    See my builds https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Zv_ap4HysL3HIl

  22. #22
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grit_Breather View Post
    I'll try and tackle this from a different direction. If any of you have played RPGs, this may seem familiar.

    So yeah, "You are now level 5 and have gained wheels" is bad, very bad. I propose that each character (this needs to be designed for multiplayer support from the core) be given various skills and proficiencies. These would determine the how efficient that character can be at interacting with the environment in different tasks.
    For example, I would have a low level in my building skill so when I build blocks, they would require more materials/components and it would also take me longer to do. Over time, I could bolster my building skill and improve my efficiency at building.
    The same could work for combat, driving, jetpack usage, mining, gathering, lumberjacking, etc.

    There would also not be a hard limit to achieve and these skills would never stop improving. In order to avoid "god character" situations, progression would not be linear but would rather be on a diminishing curve. Every progression I make will have less of an effect than my last one.
    I purposely don't want to call these "levels" but let's take that terminology as an example for a moment. When I advance from level 1 to 2 I would gain 2% efficiency but advancing from 21 to 22 would give me much less, maybe 0.1% efficiency gain. This way I could keep progressing forever and I would gain from this progression (especially for large builds, for example) but I would still not create that much of a gap from a starting player as to not be able to exist in the same world.

    How does this help us?
    Blocks and maybe even grid types would interact differently with various types of skills. They could even make a task so tedious that I would avoid it entirely until my efficiency is high enough. This way, we can guide starting players away from advanced blocks without actually blocking access to them. It's the way real life works and I think it would be good in PN too.
    Very interesting concept, I kind of like it.

  23. #23
    Kickstarter Builder Nomad Grit_Breather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishblend View Post
    This sounds like character skill layout, where you can either select some skills at the start that make it easier for somethings and not others like harvesting to gather food ect or construction for building ect.

    But maybe you would find a datapad or old paper book with the skill as you explore that when read will give you a boost in that skill.
    That sounds too tedious for your average survival gamer. It's ok for an RPG gamer but PN isn't an RPG.
    Selecting starting skills could work, and would take some of the monotony out of starting a new game, but might be intimidating to non-RPGers. As for increasing skills, I'm more for increasing through usage rather than scriptures/consoles. It just feels more right.

  24. #24
    Kickstarter Wreck Nomad Wishblend's Avatar
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    I would like the you experiment on something and then you have mastered a new skill that you didn't know before.
    Always looking for hidden locations and ways to build

    See my builds https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Zv_ap4HysL3HIl

  25. #25
    Preorder Collector Nomad MoonEater's Avatar
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    I would like skill mastery progression like in some titles, the more you use that skill the better you are in it,

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